asakiyume: (black crow on a red ground)
[personal profile] asakiyume
Saw a thing on FB and decided not to engage because it wasn't from anyone I knew and no one was begging for my input. Instead I'll inflict the information on my readers here--who also didn't ask for it, heh.

The FB post was about a news story yesterday that "Merriam-Webster has declared 'irregardless' a word!!" The news story was full of pearl-clutching and oaths sworn to continue to teach children not to use that word, no matter what MW says, and the commenters on the FB post were shaking their heads over standards, etc. etc.

Once upon a time I worked at Merriam-Webster, so I know a thing or two about it. What its dictionaries aim to do is **record the language as it exists in print**. MW dictionaries--and all modern dictionaries I know of --are descriptive, not prescriptive. In other words, they're not trying to act as style manuals. (There is no shortage of style and grammar manuals, if what you want are rules on how to speak or write the language.)

At Merriam-Webster, lexicographers note how words are used in print--they literally spend time doing a thing called "reading and marking," where they read through magazines, books, and newspapers (or they did, back when I worked there)--and if a word reaches a threshold presence, it goes in the dictionary. "Irregardless" has been in Merriam-Webster for at least 20 years, because it was there when I worked there.

MW does have ways of warning dictionary users about words, though. The first are labels like "archaic," "slang," or "offensive." There are also usage notes and usage paragraphs, which will warn you about words. In my 2003 physical copy of the MW Collegiate Dictionary, the note for "irregardless" says,
Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that "there is no such word." There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.

I don't think you can have any doubts about the word's standing if you read that. The dictionary up and tells you not to use it. The news story was obviously an attempt to provide a new, inconsequential thing to spend some outrage on, but honestly, there's nothing to see here, people. Move along.

Date: 2020-07-06 07:27 pm (UTC)
sovay: (I Claudius)
From: [personal profile] sovay
Once upon a time I worked at Merriam-Webster, so I know a thing or two about it.

I didn't know that! That's cool.

Date: 2020-07-06 07:43 pm (UTC)
minoanmiss: A detail of the Ladies in Blue fresco (Lady in Blue)
From: [personal profile] minoanmiss
Isn't it! *is excite*

Date: 2020-07-06 08:03 pm (UTC)
sovay: (I Claudius)
From: [personal profile] sovay
I worked primarily on this, which was doomed by Google to be outdated before it was even published.

I remember that!

Re: photo proof

Date: 2020-07-06 09:25 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Aww, there you are!

Re: photo proof

Date: 2020-07-06 10:48 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
I always forget who knows my IRL name and who doesn't. I tried locking way down after the e-stalkers pursued me for years, but I also forget a lot. /o\

Re: photo proof

Date: 2020-07-07 01:57 am (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
OMG, I still think of so many people even when I know their IRL names, by their LJ handles -- like OLD LJ handles. I srsly could not handle all the constant name switches on Tumblr.

Date: 2020-07-06 08:19 pm (UTC)
osprey_archer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] osprey_archer
Wait, you worked at a dictionary???

Actually I think possibly you mentioned this before, when I wrote a review about a book that is set at a dictionary office? But somehow it had slipped my mind since then.

TBH it feels kind of quaint to see someone pearl-clutching about something like "the dictionary has declared irregardless a word!!!!" It's so cute and harmless! A nice distraction from "We're all going to DIE because people keep GOING TO BEACHES."

Date: 2020-07-06 09:26 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
I was just reading about house parties and shared dinners and stuff in Florida. DDDDD:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/us/coronavirus-florida-miami.html

Like, WHY. I mean apparently it's a very Miami thing, but there's a plague!

Date: 2020-07-06 10:51 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Yeah, that sounds right -- plus, well, a lot of young people think they're immortal, AND there was also unscientific CRAP pushed by the gov't and the CDC like "don't worry unless you're old/chronically ill," and people pretty much thought, okay we go into lockdown and then we're Done. [personal profile] siderea had a really interesting post on that recently, on how, no, we are not Done and may never be Done and it's okay to mourn for that. That's always a hard thing for people to do, to recognize loss, and absorb it. Accept it.

Date: 2020-07-07 12:34 pm (UTC)
amaebi: black fox (Default)
From: [personal profile] amaebi
Yeah, I think that after a pause, there's a lot of self-soothing by Taking Stands About Trivia again.

Date: 2020-07-07 12:35 pm (UTC)
amaebi: black fox (Default)
From: [personal profile] amaebi
Which you said, [personal profile] asakiyume. I really should always finish reading the comments before I comment.

Date: 2020-07-06 09:25 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
That is very cool that you worked there!

.....LOLOLOL how do they feel about "inflammable."

Date: 2020-07-06 10:49 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
LOL this is reminding me of actual throwdowns I witnessed about "miniscule" v "minuscule." Or commas! "The red, white, and blue flag" and "The red, white and blue flag" --

Date: 2020-07-06 10:46 pm (UTC)
mallorys_camera: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mallorys_camera
Wait! Doesn't "irregardless" mean "regardless"? Why do people need the extra syllable?

You're like the Word Detective! 😀

people's way of dealing with fear

The disease is manifesting differently now than it did in March:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/03/health/coronavirus-mortality-testing.html

My thought is that this is because to some degree severity of infection is dose dependent, and now that the weather is good, and people are spending a lot of time outside, spreaders aren't carrying as large a viral load.

That will start changing around September.

Date: 2020-07-06 11:01 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Yeah, that seems right that younger people may be acting more recklessly, but they're also less likely to die, and older people are probably being WAY more cautious now, if they can (i.e. aren't stuck in a fucking plague pit home).

I do wonder about stuff like long-term effects -- like even if someone young doesn't get very sick, will there be complications or chronic conditions down the road? -- and underreported death rates, and death lag, too. That poor actor who just died was like forty, and he had been sick since April. (I also gotta wonder about immunity....what if it only lasts six months? Two months? I don't think people can get reinfected, but right now, who does know?)

Date: 2020-07-06 11:13 pm (UTC)
mallorys_camera: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mallorys_camera
younger people may be acting more recklessly

Yeah. I am wondering to what extent that recklessness is a reaction to the lockdown, frankly.

I can't find it in my heart to condemn them.

There do seem to be long-term effects in a significant number of recorded cases, which does make me wonder about long-term effects in unrecorded cases. Quite a few viruses—varicella (chickenpox), polio—are associated with post-infection syndromes of various sorts.

But, honestly. No one is going to make those people act differently by demonizing them on social media.

I'm at high risk myself, so I take all necessary precautions.

Date: 2020-07-07 12:36 pm (UTC)
amaebi: black fox (Default)
From: [personal profile] amaebi
And 7/8 of a President Joffrey term, with everything that has accumulated in it.

Date: 2020-07-07 01:31 am (UTC)
mount_oregano: and let me translate (translate)
From: [personal profile] mount_oregano
I scrolled past that, too, but I was tempted...

Date: 2020-07-07 01:17 pm (UTC)
mount_oregano: portrait by Badassity (Default)
From: [personal profile] mount_oregano
No, no blog post. But you've given me a flash of inspiration. My writer's critique group meets tonight (via Zoom). We have a ten-minute writing session before the critiques. I supply the prompt, usually one word. What if it was -- no, were, sorry, I should know subjunctive cold -- "irregardless"?!
Edited Date: 2020-07-07 01:18 pm (UTC)

Date: 2020-07-08 03:48 pm (UTC)
mount_oregano: portrait by Badassity (Default)
From: [personal profile] mount_oregano
It inspired stories of defiance of rules or a willingness to proceed "irregardless" of caution or consequences.

Date: 2020-07-07 12:39 pm (UTC)
amaebi: black fox (Default)
From: [personal profile] amaebi
Have you encountered Caught in a Web of Words? An earlyish battle between prescriptivists and descriptionists features there.

Date: 2020-07-07 04:19 pm (UTC)
wayfaringwordhack: (Default)
From: [personal profile] wayfaringwordhack
It is both funny and sad (and a bit frustrating at times) how people can get riled up over words. I have found that if a person doesn't know a word themselves, they often feel you shouldn't have the right to use it. Or at least that came up quite often when I was a member of the OWW. :P

Date: 2020-07-11 07:04 pm (UTC)
rimturse: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rimturse
Ah, I might have seen the exact same post or at least a similar one, but I have to admit that I just skimmed over it. ;)

Date: 2020-07-12 03:08 pm (UTC)
rimturse: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rimturse
Ha! :p

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